Roy: Hi, good afternoon, Roy Oppenheim here. It’s really hard to believe that this is our eighth “Zoom at Noon,” going back eight weeks to the days of March when we were literally bailing out of our office. This concept was really just something that we thought we would do and try and because of you all because of the support we’ve gotten from the community, we’re now into week eight. You know, some days seems like it’s Groundhog Day, but for us, the “Zoom at Noon,” and maybe for you too, provides a demarcation in the week so it isn’t like every day is a blur day. But you know, “Zoom at Noon” is on Tuesdays at noon, and it’s gonna keep going until you all don’t show up.
And frankly, one of the things I’d like you all to answer today is what you would like us to talk about in the future. And you can just send that through the questions portal. But more importantly, this is an interactive process, I can’t do it without you all. So the most important thing is if you have questions as we’re speaking to let us know what those questions are, or if you have a comment or if you think we’re dead wrong, that’s okay too because you’re in entitled to your opinion and that’s what the First Amendment is all about.
So first of all, I wanna thank those who have made this possible, of course, Lance Oppenheim, our son, has been handling the whole production of this. And then Paola Vergara, who has been helping with putting all the content together. Then, of course, my partner, Ellen, who’s also my wife, and Jeff Sherman, both of whom have been instrumental in supporting this venture. The firm, as you know, is over 30 years old, we’ve been in the area of real estate and we were at ground zero for the foreclosure crisis, just 10 or 12 years ago, and still, we find it mind-numbing that we’re back in a situation that has us look back at that almost as a dry run for what we are going to be dealing with here.
I, of course, wanna also thank Ken Morris, who is joining us today, and I’ll properly introduce him in a few minutes. Ken is a good friend and has been participating in all these “Zoom at Noons” and more importantly, he’s a very, very astute commercial real estate broker who will be able to give us a tremendous context of what’s going on in the community.
So let’s proceed. Real estate, the top five border shut horizons of hope. Let’s talk about the weekly unemployment update, then we’ll talk about pandemic scenarios. Then we’ll go into the five different areas of real estate: residential, commercial properties, office space, hotels. Florida, number one destination in the country, maybe the world right now. And then what our top five takeaways are going to be from this presentation.
As I mentioned, our firm was founded literally in 1989 by Ellen and myself. Actually, Ellen founded the firm first. We have well over 75 years of collective legal experience, and we’ve been helping folks during this whole crisis, particularly in the area of real estate in terms of their mortgages, the PPP. In terms of getting out of leases, representing landlords and trying to deal with their tenants. And of course, people who are trying to figure out how to pay their mortgages or how to stay afloat or whether they should apply for unemployment or should apply for the PPP. We’re here as a resource to the community like we were last time and we thank you all for giving us that sense of purpose in this crazy year.
Our team, as I mentioned, it’s myself and Ellen, my partner and my wife, Jeff Sherman, Paula, and Mia Singh, my senior associate. And let me introduce you all now to Ken Morris if I may. Ken has over 30 years of experience as a broker. He is the owner of Morris Southeast Group. I also knew his father very, very well. They are a full commercial real estate firm. Ken holds the prestigious title of Society of Industrial Office Realtors and the Real Property Administrator’s designation. Ken is an industry expert covering South Florida commercial real estate and is just really a knowledgeable thought leader in the community. And most importantly, I like to think of Ken as a really close friend and confidant. Next slide.
Someone sent this to me on Facebook last night, it really wasn’t originally part of the presentation but it really speaks to what’s going on here. This is from 1962, it’s a picture that was in an Italian magazine and it was just some artist’s rendition of what they thought 2022 was going to look like. And it’s just fascinating because you have people in their own little cocoons, you know, traveling in mass. And ironically, this is what we’re going to be doing for the next several months, maybe next several years, where we’re all gonna be traveling together yet also traveling alone.
And we’re also seeing there’s a throwback, almost like going back to the future, going back to the past, as we’re going to see the things that we were accustomed to when we were growing up whether it was milk being delivered to the house, or whether it was going by a farm store and getting our milk, that those kinds of things that allowed for less touch with human interaction but more service is going to come back. And that’s going to be, I think, our guiding light in terms of what’s gonna happen in real estate. So this picture kind of says it all and I hope you think it does also. Thanks.
So last time we were talking about estate planning, a number of you reached out to us. And if we can assist you with estate planning in the future, or with asset protection, now is a good time to do that especially while you’re hunkered down at home and you have a chance to think about your future. This week, we’re gonna talk about the panorama of real estate as we are getting ready to reopen the nation or partially reopen the nation.
Coca-Cola may have said the best, “To the human race, for every border shut, there are horizons of hope.” Obviously, there has to be hope, without hope there’s nothing. Hopefully, that’s one of the things that we have inspired here is to give people hope that there is gonna be a future, it’s going to be different, it’s gonna look different. And how do we participate? How do we thrive? Just like the Chinese suggested, for every crisis there’s opportunity. We see this as both a crisis as well as an opportunity. And hopefully, the reason you’re joining us today is for that very reason.
Let’s go and look at the unemployment rates because without understanding this, it’s kind of hard to understand where we’re going. So in January of this past year, there were only 212,000 unemployment claims, which is not very much for the country, and then they started to rise to 3 million, 6 million, 5 million, and now formally leading up to 30 million people who are currently unemployed. The reason it’s dropping, in part, is because sometimes the application process is slowing and also, many companies are starting to slow down on the layoffs. But there are still many, many tens of thousands of people being laid off by major companies every day. GE announced, I think just last night, that they’re laying off 11,000 employees. So that’s clearly not factored in. Next.
GDP, this basically says, you know, is the economy growing, is it not? If we look at 2008, we see that the GDP actually went down 8% during the Great Recession. And it’s already down for this first quarter of close to 5%. And so now we’re gonna go to our first question, and that’s gonna be according to “60 Minutes,” how much will the economy decline in the second quarter of this year? And the answer is 15%, 25%, 40%, or 50%. And I guess a lot of people watch “60 Minutes,” what can I tell you? Hang on.
Okay, so a number of you are saying…about 20% said 15%. Most of you said 25%. A third said 40%. And a few said 50%. And according to the experts in the “60 Minutes” interview, it looks like the economy this next quarter will drop 40%. Then the question is what happens to the third and fourth quarter, does it sustain itself or does it start to pick up? And I think it’s too early for us to say that, but we are looking at probably something close to a 40% decline in the economy in this next quarter. We get through this, it’ll all be okay.
Let’s talk about the unemployment rate. But before that, Warren Buffett had his annual meeting, but unfortunately, it was an empty auditorium. He did it via Zoom or some other technology. And he had said at the time that energy, real estate, and the retail industries are all facing problems that could reverberate through the economy and into the banking system. If it reverberates into the banking system then we all got a major problem. But there is a major suggestion here that energy, as we all know, prices have dropped and we’re in a deflationary cycle there. And I’m concerned that it’s likely that both real estate and retail will be in this deflationary cycle. Anyone who shops online, not necessarily on Amazon, but other places are seeing outrageous deals and that suggests also the deflationary cycle.
Real estate, it has not yet happened, and then only certain segments of the real estate market which Ken will talk about will probably be more deflationary than others. It all really ends up having to do with employment and how quickly the economy is growing. Without the consumer, all these things start to collapse. And so right now, we’re seeing that back in the 1930s unemployment had hit close to 25% it’s estimated right now that it’s 13%. Which leads us to our second question, and that is what do you think the unemployment rate will be during the crisis…let me repeat that. What do you think the unemployment rate will hit during the economic crisis? Multiple choice, 15%, 20%, 25%, or 30%?
Some people are saying 15%. I’m afraid that will probably not be right, 20% maybe, 25% a quarter, 30% and 6% saying don’t know. I think most people are saying it’s gonna be 20% to 30%, probably 25% is probably gonna be the answer. We really don’t know yet how this is all gonna shake out, but it’s probably going to approach or exceed the unemployment rate of the Great Depression. And that is one thing that I think most people are now conceding will happen. The only question will be for how long this will occur, and will it be short-lived because of all the economic incentives that the government is creating by pouring billions…I mean, trillions of dollars into the economy.
I wanna go over the different pandemic scenarios because that will suggest how long unemployment will be high, how long the GDP will not be in full throttle. And we’re not sure which of these scenarios will pan out. But it’s important for all of us to understand what these possibilities are. The first scenario is that there’ll be a first wave to last until spring 2020. Then there’ll be consecutive small repetitive waves until 2021. Then the virus will diminish sometime in 2021. There would still be periodic…Excuse me. Lost a slide there. There still will be still periodic shutdowns and subsequent relaxation of mitigating measures for two years. So that’s scenario number one.
Now we’ll go to scenario number two. The first wave is spring 2020. There’ll be a larger wave in winter 2020, that larger wave could be a function also of the general virus season, and doctors not being able to distinguish between a regular flu virus and the coronavirus. And then there would be smaller waves in 2021. This was the behavior of the Spanish flu in 1918. There were actually three waves, I always thought there were two, but there were actually three. And it was devastating because of the second larger wave due to the adverse impact of the healthcare and the entire economy. Again, we’re not sure what will happen.
And then there’s the third scenario, although I think there’s a question actually, isn’t there? Right? Okay. What’s the next question, if you would? Okay, end of crisis in progress. How long do you think it will take for the economy to stabilize? Multiple choice, 6 months, 12 months, 18 months, 24 months, or unsure. Okay, a few people say 6 months, a number of you say 12 months, a bulk of you are saying 18 months. Some are saying unsure, which is always the right answer here. But 24 months is what a lot of people are saying. And I think if you ask most experts, you’ll hear 18 to 24 months.
I’m starting to hear some other experts say that it could be three years but no one really knows. Obviously, it’s gonna be a function of two things. If we’re gonna get palliative care so that the virus no longer is deadly. And of course, the other aspect is how long it will take to develop a safe vaccine that can be distributed to the community. And how long it will take to manufacture the vaccine once it’s available. Okay. I think I’m going to see if Ken Morris is available. Ken, are you there, buddy? Hang on one second.
Ken: I am here.
Roy: Great. What I’d like to do is go through with you, if we may…First of all, I’d like to introduce yourself properly. Here’s Ken, it’s good to see you.
Ken: Great to see you. And thank you for the opportunity to participate. I’ve enjoyed every single one of your “Zoom at Noon” meetings and the information is unparalleled. And this is strategic information to help us all make better decisions so thank you for that and this opportunity. So it’s great to see you.
Roy: You want to comment on that we just ran through or you just wanna keep going?
Ken: Well, you know, it’s probably gonna be somewhere in between. I think as the states open, there’s going to be an [inaudible 00:13:46] in cases and I think the real question mark is whether or not there’s going to be a shutdown again. What we’re all trying to avoid is going back into quarantine mode but it’s unsure how that’s gonna be. We do need to get the economy restarted. Unfortunately, there is a vulnerable population and much doesn’t really have a great track record as far as taking care of themselves, you know, as far as diabetes and other health conditions. And I think that’s gonna have an impact. So I’m leaning towards this is gonna be with us for the next 18 to 24 months at a minimum and I think we need to prepare for that, and hopefully, I’m wrong.
Roy: Well, let’s hope we’re all wrong. Let’s go on and talk about residential real estate a little bit because I know there are a lot of folks who are in that business at different components. I mean, we are in terms of lawyers and title companies, but there a lot of realtors on the phone. This is their bread and butter they’ve been doing this for 30 years. And so let’s give them some sense of what’s gonna be going on in this particular market if we can.
Ken: Well, you know, right now in New York City and other major cities, there happens to be sort of a groundswell of cancel the rent and a lot of activism related to that. Unfortunately, while I understand the pressure points that all of those tenants are feeling, this is fundamental to how our country operates, right? A contract is a contract. You know, I think the government is gonna have to step in and help many of these local landlords. And right now, much of the support that the government’s been providing to small businesses has left out the smaller landlord and the landlord community. This is a problem that’s gonna continue.
The short-term nature of the PPP, it was designed for three months and it’s sort of missing most of the people that it’s supposed to take care of, including the small local landlords of which millions. And you can’t make the rent go away. You can’t do a rent strike because, you know, when is a contract not a contract? It’s very important that we understand that a lot of people are suffering but we have to figure [inaudible 00:15:58]. Not paying your rent, not talking to your landlord is really not a solution.
Roy: Right [inaudible 00:16:04] we’ve recommended that everyone work with their landlord and try and figure stuff out if you can’t pay the rent. And also, you know, there are some people who are trying to take advantage of the situation. But I think, you know, there are so many people who are unemployed right now that the landlords need to work with them and just not do anything silly because what’s the likelihood that they’re gonna find a new tenant anyway, right?
Ken: Right now, no. And most of the court systems are shut down around the country. So even if you wanted to get rid of a tenant that’s not paying, whether it’s a residential tenant or a commercial tenant, there’s not a lot you can do. And yeah, there will be some cases of people taking advantage of it, there always is.
Roy: And this is just new, the South Florida courts have announced that…and I don’t know if it’s the state but certainly South Florida, that they will remain closed for in-person activity through the July 4th weekend. And that ended before it was, I think, the end of May and they just extended it now. That doesn’t mean that there aren’t hearings going on because we’re doing us, you know, the Zoom-type hearings every day. But in-person evidentiary hearings, trials of that nature are not gonna occur now through July 4th. So that means that there will be limitations on what the court system can actually do during this period of time.
I wanna go to the next question if I can, Ken. And that is, do you think suburbia will be the big winner during this crisis? The answer is yes or no. Before you answer, let’s see what everyone else says. I think our questions are getting a bit too easy because everyone seems to be getting the answers or maybe we’re just repeating ourselves and we’re in some sort of [inaudible 00:17:55]. But 64% of the folks on the phone, they are suggesting that suburbia is gonna be the big winner here in terms of residential. So why don’t you speak to that if you could, please?
Ken: Yeah, it is. And you know, it’s so strange how things, you know, come back around in a circle, right? You know, 20 years ago, they were saying that suburbia was dead, people didn’t wanna get in their cars and drive. The [inaudible 00:18:22] and nobody wanted to buy houses. Now it’s really a function of density. And if you can afford to get out of the big cities and get into a less intense, less dense environment like the suburbs, you’re gonna do it. And that’s just from a health and safety standpoint. There’s also a quality of life component to it. You know, at a certain point, it’s very difficult to raise a family in a very intense, dense environment and also the big cities are very expensive to live in.
Now, given COVID and the fact that being close to another person and you cannot avoid it in heavily populated areas like New York City and Chicago, etc., you know, they’re all trying to get out. And I think that while the millennials weren’t really seen as having the funds or the interest in purchasing homes, I think that has changed due to COVID. And I think the ‘burbs are gonna be big winners. So I think that single-family home prices for purchase are going to stay relatively stable. And there’s a whole new class of rental properties, which are single-family homes, where large investors like Blackstone and other institutional investors are going in and developing brand new communities that are single-family homes because people wanna live in their own little enclosed space. And I think that trend is gonna kind of increase.
Roy: Let’s do two things. One is if you all have any questions or comments, you know, now is a good time to start prepping them. There are some people who are asking questions about future slides. But if we’ve covered anything, if you have a question, this is a good time to actually, you know, put it up there. But Ken, let’s talk a little bit about shared appreciation ownership and also what the impact is gonna be of rental communities that are single-family because that has changed dramatically from like 3% to over 10% or 11% in the past 10 years.
Ken: Well, I think it’s a smart play from the developer or the ownership side because you can always decide if you want a condo downstream, if the world changes, they will have that opportunity to do that. I think it all is a function of cost, what it’s gonna cost to build a unit, what it’s gonna cost for rental. You know, remember everything is an algorithm, and it has to fit within a specific bandwidth. You know, I don’t know how cookie cutter those developments are going to be. But assuming there’s gonna be duplication and a lot of cookie-cutter of that, you know, shared appreciation ownership is something so new that I’m not even, you know, remotely an expert on that. So I’ll leave that to your capable hands if you wanna discuss it.
Roy: I do wanna go back to single-family. I mean, one of the nice things that makes it affordable is obviously you don’t need a downpayment, you’re not making a long-term commitment. But like your bug guy, your pool guy, and even the financing of construction is all being done on a massive scale. And so because of that, you’re getting huge discounts on the money that’s needed to support the property. The cost of maintenance is down because it’s all virtual, like wholesale versus retail. It’s kinda like going to Costco versus going to, you know, Publix or something. You’re gonna get a discount because it’s all being done on bulk. I mean, everything’s being managed on bulk, the internet is on bulk, cable TV is on bulk. And so each step of the way, in theory, a portion of that discount should be provided to the consumer. Of course, it’s always going to the developer but at the end of the day, it should end up being a good play.
Ken: I agree wholeheartedly because there’ll be an economy of scale, you know, over the portfolio of several thousand units that they’ll be able to make those savings. So in theory, it’ll still be potentially less expensive to rent that single-family unit, rather than owning your own single-family home. But again, there’ll be limitations on what you’re allowed to do with that unit compared to if it was your own home. And, you know, I assume it’ll be more restrictive, you’re not gonna be able to have, you know, the pickup truck in the front yard with the hood up and, you know, lawn furniture all over the place.
Roy: You were talking a little bit yesterday about how [inaudible 00:22:37] and architects are gonna redesign the family home to create more working spaces for people who are gonna work and live at home.
Ken: I’ve been talking with several architects and I’ve also been reading extensively like you have, I think that’s gonna be a trend that’s gonna be paralleled in the multifamily housing sector that new units and existing units are gonna be redesigned to accommodate and alcove for work. And I think core issues are bandwidth and the ability for people to log on and do their work. Because I think remote working is here, we have the technology to support it finally, and I think that genie is out of the bottle. So new units and homes, instead of having dens or family rooms or whatever they can trade-off will have an area for an office or a work alcove. And that it will have the technology to support that, it will require to be able to be successful to [crosstalk 00:23:44.007].
Roy: I just want to add a lot of these single-family rental communities or even traditional ownership homes that are gonna be built by developers are gonna have super, you know, 5G Internet, you know, built into the walls and built into the guts of the home.
Ken: Agreed. Back in the dark ages, when I used to take a horse and buggy to get to University of Miami, one of my final projects’ research was related on smart home technology that they were just forecasting at that time what it would take to wire the house completely. Now with the Internet of Things, it’s much, much easier to have high bandwidth. And basically, all of these new units are all gonna be completely smart. There’ll be able to manage the energy and water usage down to the specific faucet or appliance.
Roy: There are two questions. First is what is shared appreciation ownership? Let me take a stab at that. Basically, you may own the home, but you may only put a part of the downpayment down. So if you have let’s say $100,000 downpayment, the bank says we’re gonna put $20,000 of that downpayment down, that’s a fifth, so not only you’re gonna pay the mortgage, but at the end when you sell the house if there’s been any appreciation in the home. Let’s say you made $100,000 and you put down $100,000, you keep the home for 10 or 15 years, you won’t keep that $100,000, you’ll keep $80,000 of it because $20,000 of it belongs…or one-fifth belongs to the bank or the financier who shared the ownership interest with you. So, if you put down only a portion of your initial deposit, then a portion of the ownership at the end of the day may belong to the investor who co-invested with you or shared the appreciation with you. And so it’s a way to get into a home with a smaller down payment yet you don’t completely own the full upside, you would share that upside.
One more question, do landlords who own individual rental properties in several condo buildings qualify for unemployment insurance and/or the PUA benefits in Florida? I’m not sure about the PUA, I’m just not familiar with that, maybe Ken is. I don’t know what that is. Maybe there’s someone else on the line who does. And in terms of are you eligible for unemployment? Unemployment as a function of you being either an independent contractor for federal but not for Florida, Florida doesn’t recognize independent contractors, but the federal program does. But more importantly, you know, are you a W2? Are you an employee? So unless you’re paying yourself as an employee, which you’re probably not because historically that wouldn’t be the way you would want to take your income out of being a landlord. The likelihood is that you wouldn’t qualify for unemployment, unfortunately. Next page. We’ll go to commercial properties if that’s okay. Let’s start with strip malls, Ken.
Ken: You know, unfortunately, the COVID-19 crisis and pandemic has really affected and accelerated various trends. I think well-located strip malls in areas that have a need for those services, hair salons, barbershops, small local restaurants, they’re gonna be okay once the dust settles and people start going back out to shop. I think that the landlords now that own strip malls, they’re facing a tough time. You know, they’re basically looking at rising vacancies and falling rents and that’s gonna be a hangover that’s gonna be with them for the next three to five years. It’s gonna take a long time for strip malls to sort of get back to where they were.
Amazingly before this event happened, the vacancy rate across South Florida for neighborhood retail strip malls was around 4.5%, 5%, which is very, very strong. But remember, most of those tenant strip malls are not big retailers, they’re not [inaudible 00:27:52]. You might have an antique store but you’re not competing against e-commerce. I think, unfortunately, the small business people are gonna be heavily impacted because it comes down to the buying power of the consumer, and what’s going on in the neighborhood or the community surrounding where that strip mall is located.
Roy: I [inaudible 00:28:14] if I may mention a few things. Number one, many of you may know that TooJay’s is a well-known deli, they have a number of places around South Florida, and actually up in The Villages. They filed for bankruptcy because they haven’t been able to pay their rent. And so by filing for bankruptcy…and as many of you know, we’re helping restaurants like TooJay’s, but we’re not representing TooJay’s, but other restaurants in trying to figure out how they can exist and stay in business when they can’t pay their rent. And so there’s this Subsection 5 of Chapter 11, which is a new section that’s very valuable to folks who are strip mall tenants and need a way to figure out how to keep their lease, but not get thrown out by their landlord.
But the tough part is that the PPP requires a place like TooJay’s keep all their employees basically working during a certain eight-week period, which means that they would have to call them back to work. It’s probably unlikely that they could keep them all busy if, in fact, they can be open in some of the places. Sure, they could do takeout, but still won’t cover the nut. So the PPP really hasn’t helped restaurants to a large extent, and also nail salons and beauty parlors [crosstalk 00:29:21.788].
Ken: Yeah, it was a real misfire, unfortunately. And those are the people that really need the help. You know, neighborhood restaurants and the nail salons and those other type of small service businesses are somewhat community centers, you know, or anchors to our community and part of our daily lives and schedule. The problem with restaurants moving forward that I see is that…like, remember I said, everything is an algorithm in life. The formula of a restaurant is you have to have the right space, the right menu, the right team, you know, the right bar, the right…everything has to be perfect. And now, if you’re expected as a restauranteur to basically say, now I can only have 50% of my patrons come to my bar or come to my restaurant, no more people crowded, packed together waiting for a table, those days are over, at least for now, how are you supposed to make it?
Roy: I mean, I will say that even before this crisis that takeout was going to consume 30%, 40%, even 50% of the revenue of certain restaurants. And so there was this trend, especially with the DoorDashes and the Grubhubs of the world that they were actually encouraging, you know, people to basically eat at home and have their stuff delivered. So that trend started, this has just accelerated it to such an incredible rate that some restaurant just can’t transition quickly into just being primarily takeout. Because if you’re at only 25% or 50% seating capacity, you’re not gonna be making money for the people that’s sitting there. You’re just gonna have them hopefully come and enjoy the meal so they will then become a customer for takeout for the next five years. And you basically just picked up a client or customer, you know, for that period. But you’re not gonna make money, it will be impossible to make money.
Ken: It becomes a showroom for your kitchen and your menu.
Roy: That’s right. You know, the other thing, which is an issue was the unemployment, and we’re seeing this in New York where unemployment payments are so high that restaurants that may wanna reopen at some point won’t be able to reopen really until July or August until unemployment benefits burn off. Because some of the chefs and other folks working these restaurants are making more money on unemployment than they are if they were working. And so a lot of restaurants are saying, “Listen, I’m not gonna even try and open until August because my people aren’t coming back until then.” So that’s also an unfortunate moral hazard of having, you know, very high unemployment payments that the federal government…I mean, there are some people getting 1,200 bucks a week. And so down here, that’s not gonna happen, but certainly, in New York and even in New York, some people work in restaurants clearly are not making that kind of money.
Anyway, let’s move on to the next type of property, detached commercial properties. We were looking yesterday at [inaudible 00:31:57]. So let’s find some Farm Store pictures from old Florida. These detached kinds of business environments, whether it’s a drive-thru bank, a drive-thru McDonald’s, or a Starbucks, I mean, they’re able to function almost to capacity. What do you say to that, Ken?
Ken: Yeah, I agree. You know, it’s interesting, everything that’s old becomes new again. Maybe I’ll get a fedora, like those people riding around in their little glass box cars or carts. You know, it’s funny because scooters are now…I love that picture, by the way, and I have to get a copy of that and put it somewhere. But the point is that everything is…you know, they will come back. The issue though…I think the limiting factor for these little drive-ups is the cost of ground and zoning, you know, considerations and circulation patterns, and so forth. If it is existing product, you know, it’s gonna be just fine. I’m not sure it’s so easy to put together a quarter-acre piece of ground to build a little pop-up for a little coffee. It may take a little…you know, right now this might be a winner but I’m not sure that it’s got legs for long term.
Roy: You know, it’s funny [inaudible 00:33:11] maybe a bit more but like the Aventura Mall is now having drive up for many of their small retailers. And I haven’t done it but I know some people have and so the entire mall concept of basically showing up, you’re not going in the mall, you’re just driving up and each space is really becoming a mini-warehouse. I mean, it’s very expensive mini-warehouse space, I understand, but that’s kind of where we’re moving.
Ken: I love it because I hate shopping and I hate going to the mall so I slow down to 5 miles an hour, and they pitch things into my window, I’m in.
Roy: So I think we’re gonna be looking at a lot of that and so it’s kind of an interesting concept. Let’s go on to Florida industrial because I know that’s one of your favorite areas to talk about.
Ken: I love industrial and yeah, supply chain networks really have been disrupted. And I think that’s not just locally but a global scale. And I think the big winner of all of this and all property types if people said what should I invest in, or what’s gonna survive and do okay is really distribution warehouse. 3PL, you know, third-party logistics companies are gonna be booming, there’s gonna be increased demand because of e-commerce all the way across the board. You know, we’re getting food delivered to us, that needs to come from a warehouse. You know, Publix has their own warehouses, and then the people who pick it up have their own warehouses, refrigerator warehouses are gonna grow [inaudible 00:34:37]. I see, you know, millions and millions of square feet of demand.
I think initially, just for the next maybe three to six months, the pause on spec development like Prologic and some of the other big developers are saying, “Hey, let’s see the dust settle a little bit.” But long-term bulk distribution is gonna continue to stick skyrocket. And I think that bringing supply chain safety back to the United States is very important. Right now, supply chain is really China supply chain for a lot of our goods and products and obviously, we’re gonna be shifting back to the United States. I also think that there’s gonna be a trend of an increase in additive manufacturing, which everyone knows is 3D printing. So you’re gonna have buildings where the product is manufactured, shipped right from the same facility and that’s coming.
A new development is all gonna be 36-foot clear and above, take advantage of cubic storage. And you know, here in South Florida, we’re pretty much out of ground. The developers are still trying to push out that western boundary and southwest Miami-Dade really into the Everglades, which I’m not a fan of. All of that ground is being looked at for bulk distribution centers because MIA is really out of room for cargo. So the last-mile distribution is obviously gonna continue to increase in demand, e-commerce, you know, we’re all gonna be buying everything online much [inaudible 00:36:17] than going to the store or going to the drive-by mall where they throw boxes through your window.
Roy: What’s the possibility of having like distribution centers that aren’t just one story but actually are multiple story and using technology to bring stuff down to the ground, which would be cheaper than, you know, buying the ground?
Ken: Well, they have it now. I mean, in Japan and certain areas in Asia, they have these, you know, five-story warehouse buildings. And it’s very interesting to see the design component of it because you have to design it for these massive, massive drive areas where you can have super-large fork trucks go through in the lanes. And how it’s designed and how they get product from one place to the other and obviously down to the ground where it gets shipped away. And they also have, you know, ramps going up to this, you know, second story and third story, very, very interesting. So you’re gonna see more of that.
I guess the limiting factor for all of this is what the cost of construction is gonna be and we’ll talk a little bit about that when we get into office. But bulk distribution warehouse, you know, off the charts, gonna be great. I think manufacturing is gonna change. I think the days of massive 300,000, 400,000 square foot manufacturing facilities will start to fade out when 3D printing really continues to take off. It’s less expensive and you can run 5,000 parts instead of 5 million parts. And you don’t have to store it everywhere. And you can see how it goes when it hits the market and sells and you can refine it, sell another 5,000.
So, unfortunately, instead of having American workers working in factories, you’re gonna have lots of robotic 3D, and robots doing a lot of the manufacturing. So I think we have to, you know, [inaudible 00:38:10] about what the expectations are for manufacturing coming back to the States, but it’s definitely gonna change.
Roy: Thank you. I’m gonna go to some questions, Ken, if that’s okay. Can you guess what you think will happen to the new development of what used to be the Fashion Mall, please? So what’s gonna happen to the Fashion Mall is the question. You know, what do you think is gonna happen to Fashion Mall in Plantation?
Ken: Well, I think Art is a smart guy, and very successful, he’s the developer behind it. I watched that property for years. I remember going to the Fashion Mall when it first opened. And obviously, those days are over. They have gutted the sole office building that was on-site, they’re hoping to lease it out for, you know, third-party tenants. The residential component, I think ultimately, will be successful. I think it’s gonna take time now in this new climate. I think, unfortunately, the City of Plantation really made it hard to get the development up and running. But I think that that specific development will be successful. And it’s adding new energy and life into what was starting to become a more older part of Western Broward. A little bit further up the street is the headquarters for…sorry, I’m having a brain fart.
Roy: That’s okay.
Ken: Where they have the augmented reality company. And there’s all-new development going on at the intersection of University and [inaudible 00:39:49] in Sunrise, which is just a couple miles north of the old Fashion Mall site. So with the new residential, the new retail that’s gonna be there, it’s gonna take time. They’re really gonna have…you know, it’s gonna take time to get those retail spaces leased up just like they will in Dania Point, which is a brand new retail project that was just completed, just south of the airport that faces 95. It will be successful, it’s well designed, but you know, it all comes down to cash flow. Cash flow is the primary consideration. The consumer doesn’t have the money to pay their rent, or their mortgage, they’re not gonna be so excited to go out to a retail plaza.
Roy: I wanna go [inaudible 00:40:32] because it kind of speaks a lot to what we’re talking about. Lifelines for small businesses or the drive-ups. I mean, I think we’re seeing whether it’s gonna be drive-in movie theaters or it’s gonna be people driving up to have their orders taken, I think we’re kind of going back to the future as we both suggested here. Any thoughts?
Ken: Yeah, I think at least for the time being, I think that will come back. I think it’ll be a novelty. If I had known we were gonna talk about this, I would have my Doc Brown hair sticking straight up from “Back to the Future.” But, you know, again, it really comes down to how long the fear is gonna last related to the pandemic. If we wrap this up quicker and we get a vaccine, or we get that palliative care put in place where less people have to be afraid, that’s gonna kind of dictate some of these trends.
Roy: [inaudible 00:41:36] the time that strep throat could be the kiss of death before we had antibiotics. And today, when you get strep throat, you call your doctor, you get an antibiotic. You may not go to the doctor and it doesn’t like cause, you know, a pandemic crisis where everyone has to shelter in place. So I mean, I think that could be one of the things that happened here that you’re talking about.
Okay, let’s go to curbside. I mean, we talked about this, but this is just a great picture. I mean, if everything is gonna go curbside then location, location, location becomes less significant in terms of value of property. Why go to a Publix when you could actually go to a Publix warehouse or have the Publix warehouse delivered to you? I mean, the real question is gonna be what’s the value of location, is that paradigm going to change?
Ken: I’m smiling because I remember there was an enterprise…I forgot the name of the actor, but he was in “Seinfeld,” he played Elaine’s boyfriend. And he’s been the spokesman for an enterprise where he goes to pick up his rental car, he goes, “I don’t have to talk to anybody, not talking to you,” and he goes straight to his car. And, you know, he gets what he wants and I think that’s the world we’re kind of…we’ve been moving in that direction. And I think with apps, you’ll be able to…you know, everything will be waiting for you. And this is definitely here to stay, especially for restaurants.
Roy: Let’s go to the next slide if we can. So, here you have a supermarket and like the supermarket is like parts of it are becoming off-limits because it’s being converted already into a quasi-warehouse. And so there are parts of stores that you can’t even be part of anymore and they’re just closing down more and more of it. And so eventually the question is, you know, why pay prime rent in a certain location when you’re gonna either do pickup or delivery? And so that’s gonna be the real question for, I think, the landlords, and the financiers, and mortgage companies, and the institutions that provide the financing to all these folks for so many years. Let’s go to malls, next page if we can. And this, of course, becomes a very interesting issue. What’s your thought on shopping malls and their viability going forward?
Ken: They’re done. I mean, this pandemic event really is just accelerating the end of the mall, department stores too for the most part. Unless there’s a climatic reason like you’re in North Dakota or Minnesota and it’s, you know, subzero eight months out of the year, an indoor mall is something that is a necessity. But for the most part like the old Fashion Mall or the Broward mall, for the most part, they’re done. They’re gonna have to either be demolished or adaptive reuse or [inaudible 00:44:17]. But even that, there’s a limit to how many laser tag centers and, you know, trampoline gyms that you can have. You know, nobody shops like that anymore, for the most part, and they’re gonna have to go. The good news is there’s gonna be millions of square feet of real estate, land, that’s going to open up for all sorts of other uses. Maybe some of them can be converted to residential use, hard to say, it’s a case-by-case basis.
Roy: So does that worry you for multifamily? And it could be used partially for affordable housing it could reduce some of the economic crisis that we were having before this pandemic.
Ken: It could but, you know, before the Fashion Mall went into…before it was sold to the Chinese and the Chinese lost it, I was invited to consider taking over the leasing of the whole plaza. What they were thinking at that time was turning it into office space. And you know, I said, “Wow, that’s an interesting idea but just think about the transit time to get from the parking garage to any part of, you know, this mall.” I timed it. I said, “No one’s gonna wanna walk 20 minutes to get to wherever they wanna go, whether it’s an office or an apartment.” The other issue is, like, safety considerations, you’re gonna have to…I mean, the plumbing, all of the cost to retrofit those older structures, you’re probably better off just hitting the plunger and starting from scratch.
Roy: I do wanna [inaudible 00:45:52] a mall is only as good as its constituent occupants. And so besides J.Crew announcing and True Religion filing for bankruptcy again, we talked about Saks Fifth Avenue. The following are at the cusp and by the time we come on “Zoom at Noon” for our ninth session, a number of these companies will have announced bankruptcy. And those are Neiman Marcus. Victoria’s Secret, General Nutrition, Party City, JC Penney, and GameStop. Now, most of these companies were not doing particularly well before the crisis and so this is just pushing them over the edge.
Although General Nutrition probably wasn’t doing that bad, but the problem is that you can order your stuff online from a place like General Nutrition. And even Party City, I mean, the idea is you have to walk through those horrible aisles anyway, who really wants to do that? They’re really not that nice. Neiman Marcus is a different store. Is there some questions? Let me do this question. Weren’t we supposed to do this? I think we missed this but…oh, no, it goes up under hotel. So let’s go to the next slide if we can. Big venues, let’s talk about big venues. What’s your feeling about big venues for physical gatherings, art venues, convention centers, party venues, you know, sports arenas?
Ken: Look, I like going to a baseball game. I like watching the field, it makes me feel like I’m 10 years old again. I like to hear, you know, the crowd react [inaudible 00:47:11] a strikeout. I think a lot of people are social. Most people are social animals, we like to spend time you know, with other people. Again, I think it all comes down to how quickly we get through this fear period related to the pandemic. I think it’s way too early to tell whether these large venues are gonna be winners or not winners. I can tell you I’d rather sit in my family room and look at my 80-inch TV than go to a movie now but maybe that’s just because I’m getting to be a cranky middle-aged guy and I don’t want to hear someone fight over the same candy wrapper for 20 minutes.
Roy: Someone just asked a question, we should probably have Lanta [SP] answer this but what will happen regarding the entertainment industry, movie sets are shut down, there’s no new production? I think the answer is that over time, this crisis will resolve itself just like it always has in the history of mankind. And these industries will come back, they may not come back the same way exactly but people have always been entertained. From the times of Shakespeare, there’s been theater and there was theater before Shakespeare during the Greek and Roman times.
And so entertainment is not going away because we all need to be entertained. I mean, that’s just part of life. It’s part of culture, it’s part of our anthropology, it’s part of our DNA. And so there will be entertainment, there will be an entertainment industry. Will it look exactly the same, like it looks before the crisis? It can’t because we will all be changed by this by this event. Now, maybe in 100 years, we won’t be changed because we won’t remember but there will be so many institutional changes that will have occurred. And so, for example, let’s talk about office space. Okay, let’s talk about the institutional changes that are going to be permanent in office space. Let’s talk about that.
Ken: Well, I think it’s kind of early in the game to really plant our flag into really what the office is gonna look like. But my prediction right off the bat is that at least most enterprises are gonna reduce their footprints by 25% or more. Remote working has been forcibly proven to be effective and for most people relatively efficient. I have several clients that are now considering going completely virtual because it works so well for them. Now, not every business can function that way and some do need a physical address. And I believe that most enterprises do need some location for the team to convene occasionally for employees to rotate in and out for training, you know, get another boost of corporate culture and so forth.
But I think that the cube farms of the last 25, 30 years may be done. And I think we’ll see a return to more individual workspaces or offices and so forth. The limiting factor for that is gonna be cost, the cost per square foot of construction is over double, beyond double from when I started. When I started, a decent office could be built out for around $20 [inaudible [00:50:22]. Now, you can’t even build a decent office for, you know, $55, $60 a foot and I’m not talking about super fancy. Super fancy spaces are over $100 a foot. So it comes down to, you know, the cost-shifting and who’s going to bear that cost.
Now, some of the design and some of the office is gonna be built with modular systems where the landlord invests or theoretically could invest in modular system walls that can be put up [inaudible 00:50:55] for some tenants, that’ll work. And it’s a question of whether the landlord owns that product or the tenant owns that product. I predict that moving forward, lease terms are also gonna be shorter. You know, for the last f5 to 10 years, there’s been a push for 5 to 7-year leases. I think with accounting law changes, the FASB rule changes, and now this, you’re gonna see tenants wanna sign for shorter-term leases.
And the problem with that is the cost of building out office is so expensive, for the landlord to be able to underwrite that cost, there has to be a longer runway in time. Well, now the tenants are gonna have to shoulder more of the burden, or they’re gonna have to have less in the improvement space, or the space will just be…everybody’s gonna have to live with spec spaces where you take a 5,000-foot office and that’s what you need [inaudible 00:51:48] and offices and that’s it. Because they’re solid and they’re not gonna be changed or the modular [inaudible 00:51:54].
Roy: What do you think of the WeWork model? I mean, it seems like this is not good for WeWork [crosstalk 00:51:58.567].
Ken: It is not. It’s not good for the co-working space. You know, one of the things about WeWork and a co-working model was, you know, we’re social animals and for the people that were working out of the house and feeling isolated, it gave you the opportunity to go to the coffee bar and talk about your widget or your web design and what they’re doing and share ideas. And then all of a sudden, you know, you’re the next Microsoft. That’s gonna change because now…And I’ve been in many WeWorks, they have these little phone booths, you have to touch the door to get in. This cramped little door full of virus all over the place, that’s gotta change.
Now, WeWork has come out with a new model showing what it’s gonna look like now, but it’s got people far apart from each other. It’s back to like a restaurant. How is WeWork or that co-working model gonna survive when you have your density level is reduced by half? It’s not the same environment. Some will survive but some are not gonna make it. It’s not gonna make it in a post-COVID world.
Roy: I wanna move on but in terms of current office space, I know that under the CDC, offices are gonna have to create sanitation wardens, they’re gonna have to hand out supplies, you know, gloves and face masks. I mean, it’s gonna be a completely different environment. I mean, coffee bars are gone. I mean, communal kitchens are gonna be gone. I mean really, the whole gestalt of the office is going to change.
Ken: Well, you’re gonna have touchless services, you’re gonna have doors either automatic sensors that open up for bathrooms, touch the door handle, all of that’s going to happen. And you know, major employers now nationwide just announced today, they’re closing five major centers and all those people are gonna be working from home. OpenText, which is a technology company based in Ontario, Canada just announced that they are eliminating 50% of their office space forever, it’s done. And they’re gonna be saving $75 million a year. So, again, the footprint is gonna continue to shrink, and what’s left and how we office definitely has changed.
Roy: And I think you and I talked about this, but some major banks that have major bank towers are concerned about how do they get their employees up the elevator, you know, if they’re like a 30, 40, 50-story tower if only 2 people really should be in an elevator at one time. I mean, it becomes a logistical nightmare how that [crosstalk 00:54:29.537].
Ken: Right. And how do you protect yourself as an employer, you know, from litigation? They could come in, say, “I got sick in the elevator, I got sick [inaudible 00:54:40], I got whatever.” So, you know, it’s gonna be, you know, an interesting time and probably a good one for the legal community. Not only this, but also for litigation and business and litigation. It’s just gonna be a tidal wave of litigation.
Roy: Anyway, this is, I think, our last question. And it has to do with hotels, actually Airbnb. How long does Airbnb require the property owner to keep their properties vacant for disinfection purposes between rentals, 12 hours, 24 hours, 48 hours, 72 hours?
Ken: I think I know the answer.
Roy: I fooled over half of you. Two-thirds of you, I fooled. Okay, so 14%, 12 hours, 18% said 24, 33%, 48, and 29% after I said that I fooled you some more said 72 hours. So 28% of you said 72 hours, and guess what it is? Three days. So after each rental, you have to keep the place dormant for three days besides disinfecting it just to make sure that the virus dies during those three days if you miss a surface, which means that unless you’re doing long-term rentals for 10 days or 2 weeks or a month, there is no model that will allow you to be an Airbnb owner that’s gonna provide you with any success. If you’re doing two days and then three days off, two days on, three days…I mean, even three days on, three days doesn’t work, it just doesn’t work, you have to double or triple the amount you’re collecting.
Now, if you’re doing a month rental and then three days off, that may well work because you could amortize those three days into your months. But the short-term Airbnb may be gone and good for hotels because the competition of Airbnb hotels will go down. But then the question is, what do hotels do? Because people are gonna feel more secure going to an Airbnb unless hotels provide a similar type of guarantee. Let’s talk a little bit about hotels, Ken, and I know we’re running out of time, but let’s push through this.
Ken: Well, look, they’re gonna have a really tough time for the next three to five years. I mean, business travel is gonna be way down. Now with video conferencing look at, you know, how effective Zoom is, Microsoft Meetings, and all those other platforms. And it’s a budget issue. I’ve got a very close friend that is a senior director of a major food company and he’s on a plane I’d say 200 days a year. And a lot of that’s gonna go away, and his quality of life is gonna go up, and their travel budget is gonna go way down.
I think a lot of hotels are not gonna make it, I think some will probably get converted to affordable housing. And I think the way we check into hotels, the way we access our rooms, you know. Hotel, let’s face it…And maybe I’m a germaphobe and I admit it. But, you know, checking into a hotel, you know, they’re never really the cleanest places. I don’t care whether it’s a four-star or five-star place, you always wonder, you know, how clean are the sheets and how clean is the bathroom? So you know, the cleaning protocols, like we talked about office, it’s gonna have to be absolutely brought to the forefront and they’re gonna have to make people feel absolutely certain that this is a clean place.
Roy: I think when we look at hotels, one of the things…Can we go back a sec? What I wanna talk about is that depending on how long it takes for the airline industry to recover is going to be a function of the hotels. Now, of course, a lot of people do drive, you know, to Motel 6s or along the roads. But a lot of hotels have to do with going on a business trip, going on a family vacation, going to a convention, visiting family from afar and still staying in a hotel. And you usually get on a plane or you’re getting on a plane and a cruise. And so based on how those industries do, those will be really good ways to determine how the hotel industry and the real estate market is gonna do based on the airlines.
And just so everyone knows, some folks are saying it took 5 years to recover from 9/11, other folks are saying 3 years. But three to five years is what it basically took to have the airline industry recover. And so to some extent, that’s how long it may take for the hotel industry to recover because they’re so tied at the hip. Let’s move on. Okay, next slide.
Ken: I wanna make one point before we go about Airbnbs and the hotels, and that’s the debt load on those properties. A lot of people bought properties that they really may not have been able to fully afford but were basically doing it because they knew they would get Airbnb rentals out of it. Now they’re in trouble because, you know, at least over the next several months, there’s very little if none coming in as far as income goes and their income they have to expect is gonna go down. Regarding the hotels, they’re gonna have to go to their lenders now and have a heart to heart and say, you know, “What are you gonna be able to do for us?” Otherwise, the lending community to capital markets are gonna be sitting on millions of square feet of empty hotel rooms with, you know, a 2% census.
Roy: I wanna move on [inaudible 00:59:46] by the way, you have a fan out there. Excellent, excellent, fabulous, Ken, so congratulations on that.
Roy: Let’s just talk about Florida. I mean, it looks like it’s a little early to predict exactly what’s gonna happen. Prices so far are holding steady, a number of listings seem to be quite tight right now because so many people don’t know what to do so they’re actually holding back. So prices haven’t dropped. Unemployment is gonna, of course, be critical because if you don’t have enough people to support the real estate market that’s gonna be an issue.
But of course, if we go to the next slide, Florida is now going to be the number one relocation destination in the United States, close…it was almost before the crisis and now it actually is. And so with the influx of folks from up north, from urban areas, that’s gonna have a major impact, I think, on supporting the real estate market. Doesn’t mean prices are gonna go up, but it may mean that that will provide some sort of support. What do you think?
Ken: I agree, I think there’s still a…I mean, before COVID-19 there was a net increase of 1,000 people a day moving into the state. Now, not all of them are coming to South Florida, most of them are gonna be up in the Jacksonville, Orlando, Tampa, you know, areas. But still, even if we got 8% to 10% of them, that’s another 30,000 cars on our streets every year and, you know, that obviously increases the pressure for services and a place to live. So I do think it’ll help us. Plus, our tax situation here is favorable compared to being in California or New York State. So we are seeing a fair amount of migration, you know, from the Northeast and I think it’s only gonna continue. I think the other side of that is, you know, limiting factors, maybe climate change, and that’s something we can talk about offline or another time.
Roy: Another presentation, not today. Let me just mention that the number of folks who are actually gonna buy their places sight unseen via, you know, remote showings, and actually you’re gonna have remote online notarization and closings through our title company, other title companies. And so you’re gonna see a lot of folks who are actually not…they’re gonna come and see their place the first time when they move in. And there may be an opportunity for companies to actually represent you not as a realtor but to do your walkthrough for you to determine if everything is in place and the appliances are working. Of course, you’re gonna have a realtor do it, but you may want a third party to do it. But I think we’re gonna have new niche businesses that are gonna pop-up as part of that process.
Ken: I like it.
Roy: Let’s talk about the five big-ticket changes, the big takeaways here that we can talk about. I’ll let you run through them real quick, Ken.
Ken: Well, you know, everybody says when you get in the real estate world and you own real estate, you never can get hurt. That’s not true, it’s never been true. I think over the last five years especially, you know, these super-low cap rate deals, capitalization rate, that’s, you know, a way of what the income stream is off of the income from the property. I used to say it was capitalization rate now it means can’t actually profit. You know, some of these very low cap rate deals meaning high prices are now inverted. Because when you have a significant number of your tenants not paying the rent, there’s no income stream, you’re done, you’ve got a problem and you’re gonna have to figure it out.
Big single-purpose spaces, department stores, they’ve been in trouble for a while, they’re gonna have to be repurposed. Amazon, interestingly enough when we were talking about groceries before, they’re looking at hurting retail, and they’re looking to come up with a new concept to put a warehouse distribution for foodservice in retail. So it’ll basically be warehousing in retail plazas but obviously, Amazon is looking for a deal for that.
E-commerce is here to stay, it’s only getting bigger. You know, it’s probably gonna double from what it was last year. I don’t see that changing. I think there’ll be a new technology coming out, it’ll even affect the fashion industry. You’ll be able to have like, you know, basically a laser, you know, scan you and you’ll be able to pick whatever you want to have fabricated. One of those days, you know, the 3D printer will make it but you’ll be able to have on-demand clothes like you can have on-demand video, that’s coming.
Drive-up services, like we said before, absolutely. I think that’s one of the only ways restaurants are gonna make it right now. I don’t know how you get your nails done drive-up, but I’m sure someone will figure it out. I don’t get my nails done as you can see but, you know, I’m sure someone will come up with that. Maybe a haircut because I definitely need a haircut, I haven’t had one for months.
Roy: [crosstalk 01:04:30.872]
Ken: You know, I’ve gotten offers. My wife refuses to do it and I said, “Just stay away from my hair, I’ll be just fine.”
Roy: [crosstalk 01:04:39.847]
Ken: I agree, single-family housing…you know, I was pretty down on single-family housing because of the millennial trend and not wanting to plant roots or invest their money elsewhere but I think that this has definitely turned it around.
Roy: Anyway, I think the biggest takeaway is if you have commercial real estate, if you’re trying to downsize, upside, reposition, you realize that Ken is a thought leader and he thinks and he’s just a great guy, and I’m glad to call you a friend and a broker. And…
Roy: …more importantly he equally thinks the way we do in terms of our firm being able to take our clients through this transition, figure out what the next step is, if you have to go up, go down, renegotiate, reposition, you know, it requires a certain amount of thought and someone who’s thinking a little bit outside the box. And our firm, you know, has been doing this now for 30-some-odd years and I hope we’ll be doing it for another 30 years and I wish the same for you, Ken.
So on behalf of the entire law firm and on behalf of Ken Morris from Morris Development, I wanna thank you all so much for joining us today. And more importantly, if there’s a particular topic that you would like us to address next week, please email me at email@example.com, firstname.lastname@example.org. Or use the portal right here and you could say, “Hey, why don’t you talk about this next week.” We’d love to hear so we’re talking about things that you all are interested in. Roy Oppenheim from “Zoom at Noon,” see you next Tuesday. Thank you very much. Have a great day and a great week and stay safe. God bless.